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Mike Celizic

MSNBC.com contributor Mike Celizic provides his unique slant as he takes an offbeat look into the world of sports beyond the box scores.



Big Mac makes my Hall ballot

Posted: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 10:56 PM

My ballot arrived in the mail today for the National Baseball Hall of Fame Class of 2008. And it’s bereft of newly eligible candidates who are certified first-ballot members.

 

The best of the newcomers are Tim Raines and David Justice, and neither one is going to get my vote. Raines is close, and I may change my mind in the future, but I don’t vote for candidates in their first year unless they’re the best of the best. The other first-timers aren’t even close: Brady Anderson, Rod Beck, Shawon Dunston, Chuck Finley, Travis Fryman,  Chuck Knoblauch, Rob Nenn, Jose Rijo and Todd Stottlemyre.

 

Last year, as you’ll remember, was Mark McGwire’s first time on the ballot, and he got just 128 of 545 votes cast – 281 short of what he needed to get in. (To be elected, a player must be named on 75 percent of the ballots.)

 

Only Cal Ripken Jr. and Tony Gwynn got in. Goose Gossage fell 21 votes short, while Jim Rice was 63 votes away. I voted for both Rice and Gossage, along with Gwynn, Ripken, Tommy John and Bert Blyleven.

 

Given the lack of an obvious choice and the reluctance of voters to send in an empty ballot, I’m confident that this year, Gossage will finally be recognized for what he was – the greatest relief pitcher of his day. I also hope that Jim Rice will make it in this, his 14th year of eligibility. Both will be on my ballot.

 

I doubt that Gossage needs any introduction.

 

But apparently not enough voters remember just how great a player Rice was for Boston during a 16-year career that ended in 1989. He’s one of those guys for whom the numbers do not begin to tell the story. He finished with just 382 home runs and 1,451 RBIs, but for most of his career, he was the last batter any pitcher wanted to see with the game on the line. Like Albert Pujols and David Ortiz today is what he was for a decade and more.

 

Rice won one MVP and in five other years was among the top five. That’s one of the reasons (The number of years he was a dominant player is the other) I vote for him and not for Don Mattingly, who won one MVP and was a top-five candidate just one other time. But the bottom line here is Rice deserves to be in.

 

Others will use similar arguments to get Andre Dawson in, and he may make it this year. But I’m not voting for him.

 

I get a lot of heat from a couple of friends who know what they’re talking about when I say I will continue to vote for Tommy John and Bert Blyleven, neither of whom has 300 wins and both of whom were compilers to a degree. But I don’t think 300 wins is the only measure of pitching greatness, and both John and Blyleven were superior pitchers who won year after year and finished with ERAs well within Hall of Fame range. (Jack Morris’ ERA is a bloated 3.90, which is why I don’t vote for him.) John finished with 288 wins and Blyleven with 287. If Don Sutton can get in after a career made up of scuffballs and cut balls, John and Blyleven get my vote.

 

So that’s my ballot – Gossage, John, Blyleven and Rice.

 

Oh, and one more: McGwire.

 

Yeah, yeah, I know all about the ‘roids, but when he was allegedly using them, they weren’t illegal. And, while I don’t think 500 home runs is automatic, McGwire’s 583 are more than enough. He was the premier home-run hitter of his day playing against other players who were as juiced as he was. He would have been the premier slugger without the drugs, too. I’m not holding him responsible for something baseball never told him not to do.

 

He won’t get in, but he’s on my ballot.

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Comments

YOU ARE CRAZY!!!!!  It is your vote, so waste it as you may.  However, you should have done what McGuire did....plead the 5th and kept this info to yourself.
Thank You, Mike!
You are correct when you say "alleged" and if he hadn't had idiots lawyers, the Congressional hearing might have gone a lot differently!  Like you said, "when he was allegedly using them, they weren’t illegal"!
The idea that Mcgwire should get in because roids were not illegal is a joke.  They were illegal and a person obtaining them without a legit prescription can be sent to prison.  It is true that baseball had no rules against using them, but I am pretty sure there are no baseball rules against murder bank robbery or rape but I am just as sure that a ballplayer who did any of them would not get into the hall of fame.
McGwire is being punished for looking ridiculous in front of Congress.  He was caught using androstenedione, a steroids precursor that was legally sold at GNC and did not violate the rules of baseball in 1998 when it was spotted in his locker.  Canseco may have implicated him regarding other steroids, but none of that matters because it was his performance in front of Congress that will kill his chances for the Hall of Fame.  I appreciate Mike's wise perspective on this issue.  McGwire belongs in the Hall.  He and Sosa saved baseball after the 1994 strike that cancelled the World Series.
I certainly hope that Bonds, a vastly superior player when compared to McGwire, will be on your ballot when his name comes up.
Bull! Mark Mcguire should NEVER grace the Hall of Fame nor should Barry Bonds. It doesn't matter if Steriods were not illegal. Your trying to equate true home grown atheletes with a chemically grown one. If you have used any substance other than your own talent to gain records or abilities,you should not be rewarded for it. McGuire & Bonds records should be expunged from baseball.
If they let McGuire in or Sosa they should let Pete Rose in he was the greatest all time player.
"He won't get in, but he's on my ballot."

So should I pat you on the back for that? It seems to me you should be writing this to your fellow voters. Not to readers who niether have control of the balloting or care that much.

I agree with you, that McGwire should be given credit for what he did and when he did it. There are plenty of suspect members from decades past. Right now he's an "example." If he doesn't get in now, he will someday.

But you appear to write this like you're the good guy and the rest of the voters are bad guys. How many times, in the coming years, will we have to read these opinions? What will you write next year? "I am still voting him in, but he won't be there."

Hooray for you.
I'm sorry to see that Mr. Celizic is perpetrating the same old refrain that "when (McGuire) was allegedly using them, they weren't illegal."  HELLO ... they are and were Schedule III drugs in the US Gov Controlled Substances Act and were indeed "illegal".  Just not illegal to use in baseball ... for whatever that is worth.  The absence of a ban in baseball is irrelevant here!
I, for one, hope Mac DOES get in eventually -and sooner rather than later. "The Race" in 1998 may not have actually saved baseball but it certainly brought people who had lost interest back, not to mention those who had never had interest, to the game. You’re also right that he wasn’t breaking any rule within baseball. He and Sosa were the epitome of what class and sportsmanship are about in team sports and his numbers don’t lie, he deserves to be in.  
I TOTALLY agree. I really appreciate his basis for voting - except for the Blyleven reasoning. Maybe John should get in for making a surgery famous, I don't know. If I had a vote, I'd vote for McGwire too (yes I was an A's fan growing up)
I heartily agree with you on both Jim Rice and Mark McGwire.  He used what was legal until it became an issue, and stopped.  You can't someything against him that was legal at rthe time.  
"Allegedly" using them? He knew he was cheating and he knew it was wrong . . . why do you think he lied about it and denied it for so many years. Steroids gave McGwire so much acne on his back that it spread to his neck.

Have some principles. If numbers alone got you in the Hall of Fame then Pete Rose should be there way before McGwire.
I totally agree with your statement on McGwire. Doing what you legally can to be your best in my opinion doesn't deminish your cotribution to your sport. A hall of fame player fifty years ago definitly didn't have the advantages that todays players have which extends their careers so saying someones accomplishments within the rules of the game today shouild be judged differently I believe is applying standards without justification
mcgwire was "hotter'(hgh or what ever) than Bonds ever was.... Mcgwire was not a college strong man,, he became a cheater in mlb.... no hall of fame for him, maybe the hall of shame would fit him better.
Let Pete in.....
You write about McGuire/roids: "but when he was allegedly using them, they weren’t illegal."  Huh???

Yes they were.  Use of 'roids was/is against the law  w/o a prescription from a Dr.  While MLB didn't have 'roids on the "banned substance list"...the CBA hasn't "banned" murder, tax evasion, dui, jaywalking, etc. either.  A law is a law.  

Btw- why is that I can't go 20 yards w/o running into a CVS, Walgreens, etc.  My Dr. never "ships" my prescription to my house via FedEx  ;)  

If you cast a vote for McGuire- I hope you voted for Dave Kingman too.  Cuz if he had cheated- he'd have hit 900 HR's.
I know all about the ‘roids, but when he was allegedly using them, they weren’t illegal.

Yes, they we're illegal, just not against baseball's rules. Show me Mark's prescriptions from BALCO. There are Kids doing 20 for smoking crack, and that probably wasn't against baseball rules either, thanks to collective bargaining. None of this Generation of ballplayers will pass the sniff test on their stats.
Let's extend your silly logic to the entire MLB writers association:  McGwire won't get in the HALL OF FAME (NOT SHAME) so I will just throw his name on my ballot..how many other garbage handlers are out there?
McGwire=Cheater, liar, coward, and oh yeah...one dimensional player.  No way he should be in the Hall of Fame.
It is a myth that steroids were not illegal in baseball.  It is true that baseball did not test for steroid use until 2003, but it was banned. On June 7, 1991, Fay Vincent sent a memo to each team and also the players union that stated, "The possession, sale or use of any illegal drug or controlled substance by Major League players or personnel is strictly prohibited ... This prohibition applies to all illegal drugs ... including steroids." This policy was restated by Bud Selg in 1997.
Voting for Mike is making a statement...I think cheating is just fine and you should be rewarded for it. We do not know what he was capable of and what he really would have put up for numbers.  We do not know if he was a hall of famer or not.  Remember....in cycling we see the leap from good to champion with doping....Heras, Landis and Hamilton.  I assume that there titles should be given back under your theory?
What are the minimum accomplishments, in your opinion, needed for a MLB player to be in the Hall of Fame?  I'm thinking you are close by stating Rice, John, and Blyleven deserve to be in the HOF.
What is your problem????? I have posted replies, multiple times and have never seen one posted! I have not used offensive language or used derogatory commnets and yet you still never post...Yeah! free press.
Steroids were still against the United States Code (as of 1990 they were deemed a controlled substance) so they were just against the law of the land not baseball's law.  If you used steroids after 1990 you don't deserve to be in the Hall of Fame; you deserve to be prosecuted.  
I couldn't agree more about Jim Rice.  I am a Yankee fan and think there is no question that he should be in the Hall of Fame.   I disagree on McGuire.  I do not believe the he would have been one of the premier home ruun hitters without steroids.   As stated, I am a Yankee fan and I like to address the Mattingly issue.  I am not saying that Mattingly deffinitely deserves to to be in the Hall but I would like to know if you voted for Kirby Puckett to be in the hall.  If yes, why not Mattingly.  If you look at their numbers, they are almost identical.
You are about as intelligent a sportswriter as I am a brain surgeon. Mark McGwire over Don Mattingly? Do everyone a favor - just give up your voting privileges. When you vote for a cheater over a legitimate superstar, you lose ALL credibility. Oh, and the hat you're wearing went out of style about 20 years ago.
Celzic right on target about Jimmy Rice.Absolutely one of the most feared ,  underrated hitters in the game.The fact that it has taken 14 years and still no Hall election makes me wonder how much the "scribes" really know about baseball.Hopefully,a great injustice will finally be history with his election to the Hall.
It's way overdue for Blyleven to get in. I'm all for it.
They were indeed illegal - they just weren't banned by baseball.
What is it with baseball writers and their lousy excuse that "steroids weren't illegal back then"?  YES.  They were ILLEGAL back then. For at least 25 years, it has been illegal to prescribe or use steroids, except for certain FDA approved conditions.  I would guess that MLB doesn't have a specific rule against murder, but if a player was convicted of it, he might not be allowed into the Hall of Fame, if he had not yet been voted in.  So, can the crap argument of "it wasn't illegel."  Yes, it WAS. Keep McGuire out; keep Bonds out.  They've harmed the game much more than Pete Rose ever did.
i have no respect for you when it comes to Mcgwire...guess you'll feel the same way about bonds when it's his turn
To quote you, "He would have been the premier slugger without the drugs, too."  This is pure speculation.  Just like How the Bush administration speculated that Iraq had WMDs.
I quote again, I’m not holding him responsible for something baseball never told him not to do."  So I won't hold CIA director Michael Hayden responsible for failing to tell Congress about the interrogation tapes regarding waterboarding of prisoners of war on terror. No one told him to do so. Nor will I hold the dubious lenders of subprime mortgages responsible for the current mess and downward spiral of our economy. No one told them not to do so.
Mike, don't hold different people to different standards in baseball. It just reflects more clearly how much of an idiot you really are.
I would only hope that you have the same thought process with Barry Bonds when he is eligible. If we look at pure numbers even without the roids he would still get in. When we talk about the HOF what you accomplished on the field should speak for itself. Then maybe one of these days we'll do the right thing and put Pete Rose there too, after all somebody got those 4,256 hits and it should be recognized
McGwire...what a moronic response to why you would vote someone into the hall of fame. You are an idiot.
Baseball may have not had any rules regarding steroids during McGwire's day but our state and federal government did.  They were illegal drugs and considered a controlled substance since the 80's.  Character plays a role in the Hall of Fame.  It would be a mistake to admit a drug abuser who broke the law into the Hall.
I wish my most vivid memory of Mark McGuire would be that magic moment when he hit number 62 and got a hug from Sammy Sosa and the Maris family.  However, as long as I think of Mark McGuire, my most memorable moment will be his shirking of responsibility by failing to answer truthfully to the Congress of the United States regarding steroid use.  ANY player who has made himself artificially stronger through chemicals, in my mind, is a greater detriment to the game than someone who may have placed a few bets.  Steroid use no only affects the players, it affects the youth who see it as necessary to gain entrance into major league sports.  They should be banned for life, right along side Pete Rose.
You so called expert baseball writer never cease to amaze me when it comes to voting players into the hall of fame.  If you can rake Barry Bonds over the coals over his alleged steroids use and not give him any consideration of getting into the hall of fame.  Please explain it to me like a six year old how in heaven can you ever give Mark McGwire your vote.  He is the same as Bonds, Sosa, Canseco and Palmiero.  None of them have ever admitted to using the juice. But the accusation and suspuscion are always there.   Lets be honest if you had to skills to play MLB and used this stuff who you tell on yourself.  You sportswriters need to get overselves and vote fairly on player who truly deserve recognition for the accomplishments they have obtained in their careers. I have always believed that sporswriter should not have a deceiding vote when it came to HOF voting.  Your bias always comes through when it suits your own purpose.          
So Celizic placed a cheater on his ballot. That is enough of a reason to removed Celizic from the list of HOF voters. Next he's going to want to vote for Bonds also. I knew it was just a matter of time when gutless voters start to vote for these bums.
How about Barry his first year of eligibility.  he's the most complete player of the era.  Since Mantle.   Forget his gruff personality.  all modern superstars have that, its a sign of the times in an era when we are obsessed with tearing down our heros.    
Big Mac deserves to be in.  Steroids may give you an edge, but 99% of it is still skill.   He earned his place in history and whether people want to put him in the Hall or not, he's already there in spirit.   May as well put him in legally.
Roids required and still require, a prescription, so it WAS illegal.  And who knows if 583 would have been 383 without them.
wow interesting take on the roids thing so apparently if baseball doesnt spell out in it's rules that drugs that are declared illegal by the federal government are not allowed then it is okay for players to break the law? Does baseball warn the players on kidnapping as well?
Mostly spot on w/ your points---but you have it dead wrong w/ McGwire.  Steriods were, and still are, illegal in this country.  Who cares if baseball didn't ban them.  And while I agree that most players were using them, a hall of famer should be held to a higher standard.  And you're forgetting his chance to rectify the situation in front of Congress.  He sounded like a blathering uneducted idtiot--which clearly he is not.  His constant denials and dodging of the subject is why he wouldn't get my vote.  Jason Giambi would (if he gets the numbers) for the very same reason.  
This is probabley a lawyer tacit, but by his testimony we have all made the conclusion he used steroids.  The one question no one seems to ask is when and for how long?  What if he used them only once or for a limited period?  By the way, I live in Saint Louis so of course, I am biased!
"Raines is close, and I may change my mind in the future, but I don’t vote for candidates in their first year unless they’re the best of the best."

Why play this silly power game?

What difference does it make what year of eligibility they go in on?

Either a player deserves to be in the Hall Of Fame or he doesn't.
What a hypocrite?  He writes a article blasting Bonds for steroid use, but justifies it so he can vote for McGuire for the Hall of Fame.  What a joke?
I agree that Mcgwire deserves to be in the HOF.I hope one day enough people think so too.
If you look at their stats and say that Jim Rice deserves to be in the Hall of Fame, how can you count out Don Mattingly or Dale Murphy?
Jim  .298BA  382HR 8 AllStars 0 Gold Gloves 1MVP
Don  .307BA  222HR 6 AllStars 9 Gold Gloves 1MVP
Dale .265BA  398HR 7 AllStars 5 Gold Gloves 2MVP

Mattingly doesn't have the homeruns and Murphy doesn't have the average, but Rice doesn't have any Gold Gloves either.

Don't even waste your breath with McGwire or Bonds. I don't care what you say, the stats don't lie:

McGwire 1987 - 1995 avg 36+HR/Year
       1996 - 1999 avg 61+HR/Year

Bonds   1986 - 1999 avg 31+HR/Year
       2000 - 2004 avg 51+HR/Year

Legal or not, steroids boosted their numbers. In my book, the Homerun Kings are still Maris and Aaron.
So you dont vote for McGwire last year, but you vote for him this year. Last I checked he was retired, so what did he do on the field this past year to go from not being good enough to being worthy of induction?

This is why I have little to no respect for sports writers who lack any sort of integrity. Youre either good enough to get in or not, it doesnt vary from year to year based on who else is eligible. Its not a popularity contest and its not about how nice the player was to the media.

Sports writers have no place voting on anything, at any point, at any time. To further prove my point just remeber this, there was at least one sports writer who didnt think that Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Cy Young, Hank Aaron, Honus Wagner, etc. were good enough to be in the hall of fame, as there has never been a player unanimously elected.
Your logic to support voting McGwire is so flawed that I'm speechless.


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