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Mike Celizic

NBCSports.com contributor Mike Celizic provides his unique slant as he takes an offbeat look into the world of sports beyond the box scores.



Nicklaus' record just got a lot harder to catch

Posted: Tuesday, April 15, 2008 8:29 PM

Jack Nicklaus’ record just got a lot farther away.

I know Tiger Woods isn’t thinking that way, but that’s the inevitable conclusion to be drawn from the news that Woods put his left knee under the surgeon’s knife for the third time in his career and the second time since 2003. Now, Tiger’s race is no longer just against Nicklaus’ record of 18 major victories. It’s against time.

Before this news, I figured Tiger had eight years – until he’s 40 – to collect the six major titles he needs to pass the Golden Bear. Now, he’d better plan on getting it done in three or four. He’s still young in years – 32 – but that knee is already ancient. And once it goes totally, so does he.

Back in February and March, when he was tearing up the Tour, he looked like a good bet to win at least two more majors this year. He himself talked about winning all four. But now he has to get back into shape and regroove his swing. That doesn’t happen overnight.

For starters, forget about the U.S. Open at Torrey Pines. Just a couple of days ago, I’d given him that victory on a course he may as well own. But that was before today’s news. The terse item from the Associated Press said that Woods will need four to six weeks to recover.

The Open is eight weeks away.

I’m not saying he can’t win the Open, but let’s be reasonable about this. He can’t start hitting golf balls again for a month or more. That doesn’t leave a lot of time to get his game back together. Overnight, he went from favorite to long shot. That whittles the potential major harvest this year down to two, and with fresh competition finally coming into the game, it’s not reasonable to expect him to win more than one of them. That would leave him still five away from the record he covets.

I don’t know exactly how many surgeries are in any one knee, but three is getting up there. I’m also no exercise physiologist, but I can’t help but think all the running he does to keep in shape and all the golf balls he hits – putting torsion on that knee on his follow through – is good for the joint’s long-term health.

We tend to think of arthroscopic procedures as the surgical magicians going in and making everything better, and if Tiger’s problem were a torn ACL, that might be the case. The recovery would take up to a year, but at least it would be fixed and likely to stay that way.

But he’s having bits and pieces of tissue – probably cartilage – snipped out. The knee doesn’t get better. It just gets worse at a slower rate, because you’re removing the aggravating bits and pieces, but you’re not curing anything.

And when you take things out, other things rub together and deteriorate. Arthritis isn’t far behind, and after that it’s a knee replacement, and I’m not positive on this, but I don’t think that’s good for a golfing career.

I don’t know how long the knee will hold up or how many more surgeries he can take. But it seems now that the knee had something to do with his less-than-stellar performance at the Masters. My friend Eastside Al told me on Sunday that he thought Tiger was wincing when he climbed out of a couple bunkers on Augusta National.

My friend has also been saying for years that 18 is not as sure a shot as we’ve been making it. We’ve treated Tiger’s assumption of the title Greatest Golfer Ever as an inevitability. The only condition we’ve put on that prediction is, “If he stays healthy.”

And now that comes into serious play. The last repair lasted almost four years. This one probably won’t last that long. And while it may be relatively easy to play football with pain, it’s damned hard to play golf when you know at the end of every swing your knee is going to send a jolt of agony through your body.

The positive development – for the fans, if not for him – is that this injects a whole lot more urgency and interest into his quest. We can no longer assume that he’ll play another 10 years at a high level; we can’t even assume he’ll play another three at this level. We can expect that many years, but we can’t assume them.

So every major tournament is bigger for him and more compelling for us. And each one he doesn’t win brings him closer to the time he won’t be able to win. His quest for the record was a victory march, complete with brass bands and girls in spangled leotards. Now it’s a race, and a desperate one at that.

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Comments

So if his knee is so bad, why doesn't he limp?  And if his first surgery/s were so bad, why didn't it affect him negatively?

So Tiger's been pro for what? 12 years? And he averages a major per year?  And he halfs that average, he will need 12 years to get 6 more to win 19?  

I don't know. I think Tiger needs to worry more about his foot than his knee.  He opened mouth and inserted foot when he said he could easily win 4 this year.  And that takes flexible knees.
Don't worry-Tiger will crack 20. It's not the numbers of majors that count; it's the psyche of the one who's playing. Tiger's knee may be ancient but it won't be as ancient as Tiger's wisdom and savvy. I bet on Tiger the man; he is not afraid to cross the line of adventure, something most are satisfied just to reach.
Ever time a player of lesser world ratings beats Tiger it sends out a clear message to more and more of them.  Sure, he's still the best player on tour day in and day out, but he's still human, and like the old saying goes "on any given Sunday" he can be beaten.

Tiger has never come from behind to win a major, and more and more players are starting to realize he can be beaten.

Way too many media folks constantly think that when Tiger even shows up with his "B" game everybody else is playing for second place.  Perhaps no more.

Mike, you're stupid.  Who won the Masters in 1986 at age 46?  hmmmm, who could it be?  I don't think he is the only one to win a major after the age of 40 either.  This 'High' level that Tiger plays at has been his whole life.  Sure there are ups and downs, but most players on tour would take Tiger's downs over their ups.  Lets watch. Stop predicting.  If there is one thing Tiger has showed us, its to expect the unexpected.
Tiger's through.
His complete meltdown on Sunday at the Masters, and then his subsequent years  hopelessly  flailing like Quixote at windmills he once so effortlessly stilled, will be come to define the late great career of Eldrick Woods.

This year, mingling with the smell of azeleas rising from Amen Corner, was the hidieous odor of career ending self-doubt. Tiger breathed it in full. And in a banquet of disappointing reality, shot after shot, Tiger's usual feast of unassailable success turned sour. Suddenly ancient, fetted. Confidence had deserted him, the will to win has departed forever his soul and settled in to the freshness of the next, smiling, joking, determined young men.

For the first time there was no magig left to summon. All that was revealed in the end was a new , dark, road blowing with the waiting ghost's of doubt which eventually visit all the great one's.

Tiger will play again. But Tiger has seen, for the first terrifying time, how the storybook tale will end.   The hero does not survive.
Tiger will beat Jack's record without issue. He is only 32, in the best shape of anyone around, and will recover from this surgery quickly. Even on a bad knee, Tiger could still beat everyone on tour, which technically is what he has been doing. Last time Tiger had knee surgery, he came back without skipping a beat.  He's good enough not to play for a month, and still go out to a course and shoot par or under. I still favor him to win the US Open as well as the British...two down and four to go.
So Tiger Woods had his knee scoped. I don't think it is that big a deal. I wish I could go out there healthy and shoot rounds like he did on a bum wheel. All we have heard in the past is how Tiger plays at a higher level and so what did they do to make the level of play more even, they started "Tiger Proofing" some of the courses.  If you ask me this just makes the level of play more even, but it does not matter because by the time he retires I personally think he will have 12 more majors at least.  GO TIGER!!!!
You continually state you don't know much about knee surgery so why do you then make these bold claims about how many years he has left.  The truth is you have no idea and this article is worthless
I'm thinking we should let the doctor's speculate on things like this.
The media, even one of the better writers, is casting a doomsday scenario about Tigers' knee surgery. If you don't have a crystal ball, don't try to predict the future. Tiger knows what's best for Tiger, not someone who writes about sports. Sensationalism seems to be the method writers use to draw attention to themselves, not facts. Tiger will be just fine. Watch and see.
Nicklaus had hip problems to varying degrees throughout his career and later back problems.  Just a sign that all the greats including Tiger are human.
Mike...Your evaluations and analysis just plain suck.
A LOT farther away??  I think that you'll end up eating those words, and I hope you're hungry because you may well be dining on them sooon.

Though it's critical to have left knee stability in the golf swing - especially with Tiger's rotational speed - pain-free stability is all that is required.  We're talking golf here, not gymnastics or the decathalon.  The main issue for Tiger might not be on his swing, but rather the impact on his vaunted training regimine: he may need to replace running with lower impact aerobic exercize.

Two minimally-invasive knee procedures won't even keep Tiger from winning majors on the Senior's Tour.
Tiger's biggest challenge will be keeping his body healthy long enough to set the record. He has a very powerful and violent swing. Golfers with this type of swing put enormous pressure on their lower backs. As Jack Nicklaus once said "there are two kinds of golfers, those with bad backs and those who will have a bad back!" Time will tell.....
Tiger has the patience and skill to eclipse any objective he places ahead of himself. Though a third repair of his knee is significant, I doubt it will hamper his quest to achieve 19 or more majors. Lest we forget, Tiger has the strongest mentality and short game on the planet. These to assets alone are worth a few wins.
Tiger's a stud.  No other athlete goes after records with such calculated precision.  He's known for months that he would need surgery.  He knows how to go through the sugery-rehab process as well as he knows how to win tournaments. Tiger's performance at the Masters was not mediocre, it was almost perfect.  And that on a bum knee!  When he's 100% everyone else might as well retire.  Go Tiger!
What a dumb article. Of course he's gonna pass the Bear. He only needs 6 more. He's only, what, 32 years old? He'll get there before the next five seasons are up.
Another way of looking at it, though, is that Tiger playing in pain was far better than the rest of the best golfers in the world. If he is relatively pain free, he might be even better.

On the other hand, it seems like his short game has been shaky in some majors as of late. He missed a similar breaking putt at Augusta on 16 last year to the one that Zach made. He missed several putts the year before on the back 9 which may have put him with Mickelson in a playoff. He skulled a chip on #4 at Oakmont on Sunday. And it was his putting which killed his chances at Augusta this year (how did he miss at 13?). I propose that Tiger's nerves affect him more in majors than they used to, perhaps just a by product of not being as young as he used to be. Of course, maybe pain can affect putting a little, but I wouldn't propose that as the reason.

Kind of odd timing, considering I would think he wouldn't want to jeapordize his chances at Torrey Pines, his seemingly ideal chance to win a major this year. Then again, after his last surgery, his first tournament was at Torrey Pines, and he won by 5 strokes. Though I'm sure the US Open setup people are trying to make it so it has as little resemblance to the Buick Invitational setup as possible.
Trust me, the writer is correct about his arthroscopic knee surgery.  I have had cartilage removed from my left knee twice and the arthroscopic procedure only eliminates the pain (and crunching/catching) temporarily - it does not repair the knee by any means.  Tiger will definitely have further deterioration of the joint and arthritis, and will soon have bone-on-bone pain. The more he uses the joint by playing golf, walking, running, etc., the faster it will wear out.  In all likelihood Tiger is facing knee replacement as he ages.

Tiger's days of dominating the PGA tour are most definitely numbered.  I agree with the writer that his chances of catching Nicklaus' major record is in question now.  But...don't worry about Tiger not enjoying life away from the golf course - his tremendous wealth will allow him to do pretty much whatever he wants to do...as long as it doesn't include any athletics involving his knee.    
I believe that Tiger indicated that he put off the surgery until after the Masters.  I hope he didn't damage it further by participating in the Masters.  It didn't appear to be bothering him at all last week. This is a very interesting development.
I'm sorry Celzic, but do you write articles to deliberately rile people? I know, his knee must have really been killing him considering he's won what, 5 of 7 this year? And despite playing absolutely horrible, and an 'bad knee', he still finished in second place?

Anybody who thinks Tiger won't win 18 is absolutely kidding themselves. He already is the best golfer whose ever lived and is well ahead of the clip of major victories Jack had. It's a no brainer.

I'm surprised you haven't told you readers to hope he doesn't go blind too as he has already had lasik twice. Even blind with only one good knee, Tiger will still hit 18.
This is a horrible article. Microscopic knee surgery is not a big deal I had three in high school and still played football at a high level college. He will probably win the Open at Torrey Pines.
I usually agree with most of what you write, Mike, but this is just plain wrong.  He's won 5 majors since his 2nd surgery in 2002 and been more dominant than ever.  Let's not make this procedure out to be a total knee reconstruction.  It was a housecleaning procedure.  He didn't tear and ACL, MCL, or anything like that.  Dozens of athletes have this done every single year and aside from the small amount of time off to rehab there are rarely any major negative effects unless some other factor (like age or other injuries) comes into play.  By 2011 we'll all be wondering if Tiger can get to 30 majors before he puts his clubs away for good.  He'll need 4 years at most to get to and pass Nicklaus.  You're blowing this WAY out of proportion.
Guys and Gals here's an fyi - Tiger is still the favorite to win the US Open and he will live up to that.  Celizic, it's amazing that you are already hedging your bets against Tiger and your article from last week isn't even dry.  Come on, I know it's something to write about and it is a stroke (excuse the pun) of scheudenfraude for others, but there is no doubt that Tiger will win 20+ majors.  I mean come on - the guy has 9 first place finishes and 4 2nd's in his last 14 events - with a tweaked knee.  You want to track and try to predict his greatness?  Look at the numbers - period.  From an athletic standpoint he is in unreal shape.  He'll get his knee scoped, brush off any rust that comes in a week or two and be ready to roll for the US Open and the rest of the year.  Torrey Pines is relatively flat compared to Augusta which will help and don't forget, the one thing Tiger WILL be able to do for his 4-6 week break is practice his putting - which was exactly the cause of him coming up short at Augusta.  Give me Tiger vs. the field any day - even with a scoped knee.
I think Woods can probably play for at least another 10 seasons.I have not seen anyone as consistant as he is in win or top 5. I would give him at least 6 more majors and the record. I see no other getting close, not even lefty.
Oh, Tiger, prove this person wrong. We're not ready for you in the Special Olympics. I'll resume my golf interest next month when you're back.  Hope to see you again in Dubai.  
Tiger is certainly the most dominating..But I am not sure I can call him the greatest, even if he gets to 19 majors.  

It may not be his fault, but the level of competition for him, just isn't the same as it was for Jack.

He is not being challenged by Palmers, Players, Watsons or Trevinos.

Mickelson, Els and Singh are more along the lines of Irwin, Floyd, Ballesteros and Miller.  The seocond tier of challengers in the Nicklaus era.

Jack also won a few where he came from behind on Sunday.

So until Tiger is finished and we know exactly where he stands,  the subject is certainly a up for debate.


I don't think its his physical health that is the biggest obstacle.  It's the fact that the "Tiger Intimidation Factor" simply doesn't overwhelm the new crop of young players who cut their teeth in the game trying to be just like him as opposed to the older crew (Mickelson, Els, Singh et al) who have spent the last 10 years cowering from him. If Tiger has demonstrated one major weakness, it's that he isn't a great toe to toe slugger with an unawed opponent.  He's a tremendous destroyer and frontrunner, but his clean record ofe never having won a major from behind on a Sunday and his lukewarm Ryder Cup record doesn't bode well against new competition who are only moderately intimidated by his lurking presence.
Mike, didn't realize you're an M.D.

I've already stopped reading the articles that are openly advertised as "Celizic: ... ".  From here forward I will know to steer clear of the articles filed under the "Open Mike" heading as well.  You are such an incredible hack it is ridiculous ... pointing out obvious conclusions, jumping on bandwagons, and perpetuating everything that is wrong with sports journalism.  You are only a slight step up from Jay Mariotti in the grand scheme of bad sports reporting.  Just to clarify ... he is at the far point of the bad end of the spectrum.
Didn't Tiger when 4 events this year on his bum knee?  I kinda think this writer has blown this out of proporation.  First, I think the only huge affect would be out of the rough and on off the tee which we all know is already his achilles heel.  And even if he is driving bad from pain, he can handle irons off the tee and win majors...remember PGA 2006. I think its more likely to effect his Senior Tour majors then any on the PGA tour.  
This is another fine example of one who cannot do runninng his mouth.Go TIGER
If its not going to be the knee it may soon be the back. A few years ago I remember watching a show on the Golf Channel were people were mentioning Tiger may have back issues with his style of play. A bad back and bad knees I see the number at 18 as being pretty tough to reach, its not that Tiger cannot do it but his overall health will be key to watch over the next couple years as younger stronger golfers come up through the ranks. Not that Tiger has back issues now but once he hits about 35 look for that to be the next issue of health problems down the fairway.
Typical knee jerk reaction by an armchair golfer/columnist.  I did not know you were a surgeon who knows Tiger's knee is ancient.  How many majors did he win with the pain?  Why don't you just wait and see what happens instead of being Nostradamus and predicting the future.  
I think Mr. Celzic is forgetting Tiger can beat 90% of the tour players on one leg anyway.I'm sure he has the best doctors money can buy who know more about the "bits and pieces" than a .com contributor does.The record will be broken in 2015.
I have much respect for this man named Tiger! What guts to play in such pain and come in second; never
mailing it in like many other golfers do every weekend!!!
I have much respect for this man named Tiger! What guts to play in such pain and come in second; never
mailing it in like many other golfers do every weekend!!!
Once again, Moron Celzic strikes...

Will Tiger dominate the tour the way he did in his mid 20s at the age of 40?  No, but he will be able to compete at a very high level year in and year out well into his 40s and should have no problem overtaking Jack.  They days of the 12 tournament win streaks may be a thing of the past, but Tiger still is the best ball striker, and the best putter on tour and a sore left knee wont stop Tiger.

As typical with Celzic no research was provided as to when Jack won his last major and what age he was.. 1986 and 46 years old.  In fact, Nicklaus hadn’t won a major since the 1980 PGA.  He even made a run at the 1998 masters finishing 6th.  I could go on and on about older golfers winning major tourneys, Mark O’Meara anyone?




Has Mike read MSNBC.com's article on Tiger's record post-surgery?  After arthroscopic surgery in 2002 on the same knee, Tiger won three of his next four events.  

I'm not saying it couldn't have long-term implications, but I don't think anyone but a medical professional can accurately say what those might be.
Less-than-stellar peformance?  Coming in second at the Masters should not be considered such.  I think people are beginning to expect Tiger to win everything and need to find an excuse whne he doesn't.  Trevor was the reason Tiger did not win.
I'm really suprised to think anyone actually believes Tiger is in jeopardy of not breaking Nicklaus's record due to arthroscopic knee surgery at 32 years old.  Come on, Tiger has played spectacular golf since joining the tour and if some knee pain caused hime the get only second place at a Grand Slam event a return to health will keep him winning ... consistently.  This man has always been way, way beyond belief and his talent and strength of character will continue to shine.
i never realized how many tiger haters ther were out there.It seems that any time a man of (not white) background comes along to break any record held by a person of (white) background people start growling and the hate start showing ala Barry Bonds. I am not saying anything about Barry's innocence, but what i am saying is the comments about him versus say Pettite or Roger. It is amazing how the media has dropped that story faster than you can say Hall of Fame.
Yo Mike, if you had read any articles about Tiger's previous surgeries, you would have been better informed before spouting off about Tiger's now desparate chase to surpass Nicklaus.  The first surgery was to remove a benign tumor, the second to drain fluid around his ACL and to remove a benign cyst.  Neither of these have any reference to injury to the knee.  And hello - running does NOT cause knee injuries!  Ask a respected sports orthopedic surgeon before you make such statements.  Ever heard of Dean Karnazes?  Ultramarathon man, has the knees of a 20-yr old.  He once ran 50 marathons in 50 different states in 50 days.  One surgery to repair cartilege damage does not make Tiger's knees old and arthritic, or even reduce his chances of passing Nicklaus' mark.  Yes, his chance of winnning the US Open is probably reduced, but unless he has further surgeries to repair actual *injuries*, I wouldn't write off his chances in the least.  No doubt in my mind, Tiger will be the greatest golfer ever.
The REAL record Tiger should go after would be: Nicklaus' PGA wins number, including the 18 Majors.  If Tiger is going for Jack's true record, the number he has to win to break that record would be 73. Doesn't appear Tiger will win 5 Majors in the next 10 starts, since he already has 63. Realistically, Tiger will probably approach 80 or 90 PGA tour wins to get to his record-breaking Majors total, and then he can FINALLY call it quits to give his ancient knee the well-deserved rest it has earned for him.  
I would tend to agree with the author of this article if I weren't actually a fan of golf and Tiger Woods.  The surgery he had back in 2003 was not to "repair" his knee, it was to remove a benign tumor.  So, in my opinion, these are two different occurences and seriously doubt that his chances of catching Jack are jeopardized.  Mike, you get an A+ though for writing something that solicits a response!
I'll be surprised if Tiger does not start developing other physical problems. The guy may have a perfect swing technically, but he swings too hard in my opinion. He tries to overpower the course and thats why he has trouble finding the fairway.
I was guilty of writing Tiger off a few years ago, I wont fall into that mistake again. See its not only physical ability, the mental side is huge. So ill take 70% of Tigers physical ability and 100% neck up and thats against anybody. Tiger will surpass all records, dont bet against it.
I think that Tiger's mention of winning 4 this year was more tongue in cheek than foot in mouth. He was probably just covering up his knee problems with that statement. Now we will all wait for him to hit his stride again and come back to win more.
Well, Mr Arrogant Woods needs the time off. Perhaps he can practice on his spitting on tees and greens and work on the F word he likes to use so much.
Mike C., I agree with most of your assessment, but not the closing one. It isn't a "desperate" chase. You're talking about Tiger Woods who has fought back from each adversity and come out better than before. I agree with Markus, but not sure he'll reach 20 majors - the competition is getting better too.
This just means that Tiger will have more time to spend on his putting and his short game for the U.S. Open.  As far as Nicklaus record, he will get it.  In golf terms, he has not reached his prime yet. This article is too speculative since it is apparent the author does not have information about the true condition of Tiger's knee.


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